Women in Combat

[snowglow1275.livejournal.com]

With the controversy over allowing women in combat, in the US military, I was wondering how that works on Atlantis. Can anyone point me in the direction of fic that addresses the issue of those women (such as Sam Carter, Laura Cadman, Alicia Vega, Anne Teldy, and others) being in what really must be considered a combat zone. Is the SGC exempt? Is it an experimental situation? What's the deal?

Any pairing or rating ok, but please warn for het.

Comments

[dajaje.livejournal.com]

miss_porcupine writes a lot of military-based SGA fic and some of it addresses how they handle having female Marines in a combat zone. You can start with Antecedent (http://www.offpanel.net/dmz/sga/antecedent.html) about one of Cadman's Marines getting into trouble, but then poke around her site -- she has lots of great fic and it's all gen.

[snowglow1275.livejournal.com]

Wowza! That's a lot of fic. Thanks!

[hoshi-reed.livejournal.com]

Woman can not have MOS's (Military Operation Specialization) that are specifically combat, like infantry or artillery. Because their units Primary Mssion is to engage in direct ground combat. They can however be Corpmen/Medics, Pilots, EOD (Explosive Ordinance Disposal - Cadman's specialty), radio and telecommunication operators/installers, supply, etc. They can be anywhere as long as the Unit's mission is NOT primarily ground combat. It does not however prevent exposure to ground combat altogether.

So, the SG teams that are specifically Combat (SG-3, SG-5, etc) would have to follow the rules but the science, diplomatic, medical, first contact, exploration, etc teams can all have women in them.

For instance a medical helicopter pilot can still fly medivac, Pilots can fly Refullers, Transport drops, high altitude recon, etc (Basically if the primary job of the unit is combat and the odds of being shot down are high then a woman isn't suppose to be in the unit but if combat is secondary or the risk low then woman are in those units).

(I have served as a female Marine and though I got out prior to Sept 11th, I know a few of my fellow recruits who stayed in and have driven outside the green zones for supply reasons and one of my roommates, also a communications related MOS, who has laid optic lines in an area that became front lines while she was working)

Course this is the rules on EARTH where the Pentagon has to answer to the public.

[hoshi-reed.livejournal.com]

Atlantis is a separate entity as it is international. A few countries have non-exclusion clauses for their military. Canada, France, Germany and Israel for instance. UK allows Women in Artillery but not Infantry.

So the IOA probably has no restriction. So any US military personnel stationed in Atlantis would fall under IOA per-view and probably consider Atlantis a green zone equivalent, exploration post with combat possibility.

[duonoaikouka.livejournal.com]

I just want to say thank you, hoshi_reed, for providing these insights into the possible background of military women, in Atlantis and general. I've also wondered at times about the women of Stargate, like Sam Carter and Teldie. Now your points explain some stuff to me. Thank you for providing this.

[snowglow1275.livejournal.com]

Wow. Thank you. It seems kind of strange that the intent of the unit is the determinate. Interesting.

[hoshi-reed.livejournal.com]

No problem. Having served I use my experiences to fan-wank a lot of things in Stargate.

If you like military related fic, and aren't just looking for woman in combat, I wrote a woman in the military one:

http://hoshi-reed.livejournal.com/110471.html

[hoshi-reed.livejournal.com]

It is all about risk to the Pentagon, which is the current guiding force that prohibits females being placed intentionally in combat. There are a variation of whys from old fashioned woman can't do it or will freak out at the bullets or will distract the men, to concern for their capture/POWs and the ability to stand up to torture/reveal deployment secrets that can compromise the rest of the unit, to the public perception of a female POW or body bag making the people back home not be as committed in support of the cause.

I was always support, I was a 3rd echelon tech (the type that require in-depth dismantling of equipment that isn't quick swap and shouldn't be done where the equipment could get wet or dirty or exposed to sand, dust or too much sun). This kind of support isn't deployed on the front lines but I've gone to boot camp with other females that later became supply, cooks, operators (radio, telephone, etc), and a bunch more. In fact my room mate, also a tech, was 2nd echelon (regular repair) unit and would be sent out to repair optic lines anywhere (lines can't be brought in to be repaired, they must be repaired in the field), including in areas that were "unsafe".
Supply units of course handle the logistics of items and they sometimes have to track and/or transport which can lead to areas that can see combat. Not to mention that Front lines is hard to define nowadays. There are no enemy lines vs troops and it is safe for those in the "rear". Road sides or your own mess hall can be dangerous even in "green zones".

But officially, woman can't be stationed in a combat unit (whose sole purpose is to fight) nor hold jobs of that type (Artillery and Infantry).

(My officer POV isn't as knowledgeable so though I know that woman have flown combat missions/hours in planes and helos I'm not sure about their official on paper units classifications or if it is still restricted)

[gelbes-gilatier.livejournal.com]

to the public perception of a female POW or body bag making the people back home not be as committed in support of the cause

I always wondered how the Pentagon explains all the female soldiers going home in body bags to the public, to be honest. I mean, if exluding them from combat also excludes them from being POWs and coming home in body bags... why does that still happen? (and I'm absolutely not criticising you but those people in the Pentagon who think excluding women from combat makes any sense).

BTW, what about Female Engagement Teams? Those teams have been in combat a lot (at least that's what I gathered from reading about them...) but officially they never saw any combat since women are excluded from combat... maybe it works a bit like that in Atlantis (and also the SGC, since Carter should never have been allowed to go on missions with SG1)? With a lot of bullshit talking around and some smoke screens and weird terminology?

[hoshi-reed.livejournal.com]

Excluding them from combat doesn't meant it will exclude them from the dying/capture, it only reduces the risk/number, which is all they care about. As long as they say they TRIED, they can save face. The only other option is to exclude women from serving all together or being deployed even in FOB (Forward Operating Bases) and that won't fly nowadays.

As to female engagement teams in Atlantis, The Pentagon only restricts the type of job and unit. So an EOD can't be assigned to say, a direct recon or ranger unit because that is combat. BUT they can be "lent" to the Secret Service which can then deploy to a combat area under the rules of the Secret Service. The Pendagon can't restrict the Secret Service from using the person once they are integrated to the unit. So, basically all Atlantis personnel are under IOA control and rules.

[gelbes-gilatier.livejournal.com]

Excluding them from combat doesn't meant it will exclude them from the dying/capture, it only reduces the risk/number, which is all they care about.

Thought so. Is there any indication that this might change in the next couple of years (since, effectively, women are serving in combat, whether the Pentagon admits to it or not)? It's kind of surprising (to me, anyway) that DADT was repealed before the combat exclusion ban is lifted, actually :S

The Pendagon can't restrict the Secret Service from using the person once they are integrated to the unit. So, basically all Atlantis personnel are under IOA control and rules.

Okay, that sounds logical (kind of twisted but logical). So that's an explanation that could work if you wanted to keep it still somewhat realistic and have female soldiers working in what's effectively if not officially combat roles (I'm asking since I have a ton of Laura Cadman stories and stories with female military OCs on 'Gate teams etc.)?

[hoshi-reed.livejournal.com]

Sam, on the other hand.

The SG teams all have purposes.
SG-1 is designated exploration.
There are Military teams, Combat teams, Medical teams, Science teams, diplomatic, Engineering, Archeological, Survey, etc.

Carter has been acknowledged as flying over 100 hours in Enemy Air Space during the Gulf War per Children of the Gods. Basically it is the same thing.

[hoshi-reed.livejournal.com]

Well, you could also populate the team with a French, German, Israeli, Canadian, etc. leader, Then TAD Cadman into the Unit.

This also could explain how SGT Stackhouse was the team leader canon wise and Cadman NOT lead it even though he is enlisted and she is an officer

[gelbes-gilatier.livejournal.com]

Well, you could also populate the team with a French, German, Israeli, Canadian, etc. leader, Then TAD Cadman into the Unit.

Actually, I don't have Cadman on a team at all (at least in the main 'verse), rather as someone who's lent to teams if needed. But yeah, your idea also sounds like a great work around (and quite honestly, I think canon could have done with a few non-American led teams as well ;)).

This also could explain how SGT Stackhouse was the team leader canon wise and Cadman NOT lead it even though he is enlisted and she is an officer

Oh, is he really her team leader? Since I always had the impression that canon also didn't have her permanently on a team, rather attached to them on a temporary basis (or maybe that was not the way in Duet, only in Critical Mass?).

[hoshi-reed.livejournal.com]

Since SG-1 isn't a military team (It has a civilian and an Alien), it wouldn't fall under Pentagon definitions. It would be more like UN, Ambassadorial, or other similar unit and therefore not under the Pentagon's full control. So basically she is attached, and there is no conflict.

[gelbes-gilatier.livejournal.com]

Actually... the sheer number of work arounds you can come up with amazes me. I worked in politics for four years and I've seen my fair share of "it's all about semantics" so... I absolutely appreciate your effort :)

[hoshi-reed.livejournal.com]

http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Atlantis_teams says she is a part of Stackhouse's team so I had to fan-wank something and this was it.

I think the canon explanation is ALL Atlantis personnel not officially there and therefore not under Pentagon rules. The paper trail ends their official duty station on earth/paper at (Petterson, McMurdo, Norad, etc) and what counts is Deep Space Radar Telemetry or what ever they list as the cover unit.

Given the SG and AR teams don't exist, they can't break any rules by placing women on them. Or the IOA/SGC considers that if civilians are allowed (currently civilians are not allowed to be deployed in combat units on earth) then woman are too.

[hoshi-reed.livejournal.com]

I've been called the queen of excuses at home. And I even had a divorce psychiatrist call me manipulative... and I don't consider that an insult/bad thing so...

There is something about looking at something like statistics and using logic to interpret or express what you want. I was also debate team in high school and won arguments I don't personally believe in (Pro-Life for instance).

I've debated the Bible and turned it upside down and sent someone crying I'm THAT annoying/skilled at this.

[tlyna.livejournal.com]

Wish I could have watched that.